Domino shops developing internal web applications with Domino 8.5 will see immediate benefits as they will be able to deploy these new killer apps on Domino 8.5 servers that they stand up. My concerns as an IBM Lotus ISV are that we won't be to spend development cycles on XPage applications simply becuase we don't want to fork our development efforts to support two code streams - one for XPages and one for legacy Domino servers. Additionally, based on feedback we are hearing from our customers it will be years before 8.5 servers land in their environments. So what is a Lotus ISV to do regarding XPages? Should we create a killer 8.5 application that forces every Domino customer to get an 8.5 server up and running? Nice thought but a pipe dream.
So I would like to hear from some of the Lotus ISV's out there who write Domino applications on how they plan on embracing/adopting/avoiding 8.5 and more specifically XPages.
Comment posted by Andrew Pollack06/25/2008 05:24:59 PM
Homepage: http://www.thenorth.com/apblog
I can't agree with you, Bruce. Should they NOT deploy great new stuff just because it leaves people who don't have it behind?
The deployment cost of the 8.5 server is very low. Combine that with what it gives you in increased scale, performance, and real $ savings in disk space means that if a shop is serious about Domino, they'll move to it fairly quickly. Shops that aren't serious about it, aren't going to spend good money on ISV products.
That's my take.
Comment posted by Bruce06/25/2008 05:26:55 PM
Andrew,
Isn't this what we said about 4.x, 5.x, 6.x, 7.x, 8.x etc.? What makes 8.5 totally a must do/immediate upgrade?
Comment posted by Andrew Pollack06/25/2008 05:29:54 PM
Homepage: http://www.thenorth.com/apblog
cost of upgrade is low. functional and real dollars saved is high. It can't be more simple. There is little risk, and no large project required. If you're in license, it should be no additional cost. YET -- simply turn on DAOS and cut your disk use in half. In Half. Think of the cost of high end SAN and RAID arrays, tapes, etc. Many other good things, and no loss.
I'm not saying the client side will go quick. That remains to be seen. Server side though, its a no brainer.
Comment posted by Dan Sickles06/25/2008 06:12:01 PM
Bruce, I see that you offer hosting for your apps. I know that this presents it's own issues but it nicely eliminates platform version and even platform technology issues, with some integration exceptions. I know that you know this with your exposure to salesforce.com but it bears repeating..buying bits sucks...as does selling them.
Comment posted by Bruce06/25/2008 06:14:37 PM
@Dan,
You are correct on the hosting. We have begun to build out both IdeaJam and LinkJam to support multi-tenancy hosting. The issue we run into with Domino is the steep licensing costs. I believe Lotus is working on this for ISV's - maybe not.
Comment posted by Rob McDonagh06/25/2008 06:15:13 PM
Homepage: http://www.CaptainOblivious.com
Bruce, I'm one of the people who has had very old servers around for a long time, but I don't think there will be a huge lag before we go to 8.5 on the server (no projection on client, because as Andrew says, that's a very different implementation profile).
There are two factors that will affect the timing in my own company. First, we have real and very quantifiable benefits in the upgrade - DAOS, which will make an enormous difference in our email storage requirements. Second, there is a very desirable feature that requires us to upgrade - XPages, which really ARE a game-changer to an app dev group like mine. IBM's got two aces in this game, for a change. Our admins want DAOS. Our developers want XPages. 5.x was the last time both groups were pushing for the upgrade together.
I obviously can't speak for anyone but myself, but my group will start using XPages Very Soon Now, and the admins in my group will be using DAOS soon as well.
Comment posted by Nathan T. Freeman06/25/2008 06:25:21 PM
Homepage: http://nathan.lotus911.com
We're deploying hosted apps in 8.5 beta.
Frankly, if a customer wants to hold back on server upgrades to get better software, then they're living in yesterday. You want new capabilities? You move to the new version. Every time I hear someone say "I want this to work in the older version" then it strikes me as the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Comment posted by Rich Waters06/25/2008 07:46:36 PM
Homepage: http://www.rich-waters.com/blog
I definitely agree with you Bruce. XPages could have huge implications for a framework I happen to work on, but do I leave all those developers stuck on older servers in the dust?
I may have to fork development to keep those on the edge interested and those who may not have the choice something rather than nothing.
Comment posted by Kerr06/26/2008 04:04:26 AM
@Bruce, I think you're in an "interesting" position. I think it's really going to come down to what size are your markets(<8.5 & 8.5+) and how much is it going to cost to support two platforms.
My guess is that Matt, Sean and yourself want to play around with XPages anyway, as part of your ongoing professional development. Experimental versions of IdeaJam and LinkJam seem like perfect places to try it out. You might find that you can do something very cool that would be impossible in earlier versions. Of course having an experimental version is a far cry from putting in the polish and testing required for a supported release.
My gut feeling is that you should do the experimental version, get 80% there with the ability to change it without pissing of customers. Then see what the market is. You can preview it and talk about the new features, but not release it until you have the demand. At that stage you will be better able to gauge what you need to do; switch entirely to the new version, or offer both.
Comment posted by Craig Schumann06/26/2008 04:45:27 AM
Homepage: http://governancefornotes.com
I'm going to side with Bruce on this one also. As an ISV, we are not going to target a brand new version of Notes with a product that only works on that version. Why limit your potential customer base? We still support people on R5. It costs a lot of money to bring new/updated products to market, if the first sale won't come till next year, why do it now? Why not do things that will pay off sooner?
Comment posted by John Head06/26/2008 11:40:09 AM
Homepage: http://www.johndavidhead.com
manual trackback - http://www.johndavidhead.com/jhead/johnhead.nsf
Comment posted by Volker Weber06/26/2008 02:09:45 PM
Homepage: http://vowe.net
Follow the customer, follow the money.
Comment posted by Nathan T. Freeman06/26/2008 03:52:55 PM
Homepage: http://nathan.lotus911.com
@Volker - Yeah, whatever you do, don't lead. Just follow.
What a winning strategy.
Comment posted by Ben Poole06/27/2008 04:02:26 AM
Homepage: http://benpoole.com
Leading's not an option for a small ISV if it means no sales, it simply doesn't make sense. However...
As painful as it might be, I would go for a forked development. There are going to be a lot of shops who don't upgrade to 8.x for a while I agree. BUT I think the Domino server adoption for 8.5 is going to be pretty quick compared with other major server releases. The capabilities offered in 8.5 have been a long time coming, and even the more conservative organisations out there are looking at it.
So I would go for it 
Comment posted by Bob Balaban06/27/2008 02:52:52 PM
Homepage: http://www.bobzblog.com
The thing (one thing, anyway) about XPages that bothers me is not so much that you would leave customers behind, but rather that you're forced to leave all your code behind, and start over.
Yes, XPages is powerful, new, interesting. But you can't reuse any of your Scriptlibs that you've accumulated over years. Documents saved over the web for an XPage can't be viewed in the Notes client, unless you develop a corresponding Notes form for them (2 forms per page? This is progress?)
Anyone else worried about code asset reusability? If it's just me, I'll be quiet.
Comment posted by Craig Schumann06/28/2008 03:25:32 AM
Homepage: http://governancefornotes.com
@Bob - exactly. Where did the 'no rip and replace' theme go?
Comment posted by Kerr06/30/2008 01:40:25 AM
@Craig, How on earth can adding new functionality, that your not forced to use, count as "rip and replace"? Take old code and deploy it on new server, no problem.
Comment posted by Nathan T. Freeman06/30/2008 03:38:33 AM
Homepage: http://nathan.lotus911.com
"unless you develop a corresponding Notes form for them (2 forms per page? This is progress?) "
Ummmm.... Bob.... what do you think every shop that has dual-client applications does NOW? Hide-whens? Not if they have any sense about them.
Xpages is a refactoring job. Well, so was Lotusscript and so was Java and so are composite applications.
